tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3020913048835887605.post5253202083222892203..comments2013-09-05T21:40:57.372-07:00Comments on Groupthink Rescue: Homosexuality and FreedomDan Franklinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17547004550203376356noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3020913048835887605.post-21668522569208656642012-10-02T21:15:28.065-07:002012-10-02T21:15:28.065-07:00Good answer, Last part first. The church is not a ...Good answer, Last part first. The church is not a nation with civil laws. We do not have power of enforcement. And there is not New Testament idea that the church is to be an agent in punishing people who commit sins. I don't think of this as an idea that comes from the bible but rather one that comes from our American culture which has been laid out by our constitution for more than 230 years. I am talking about the 1st amendment to the bill or rights. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion; or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. I think that, were it not for these words, the Christian Church, or some splinter denomination, would have taken over a long time ago. After all, how many times has the Christian Church become a nation with civil laws and the power to enforce those laws, and with very bad results. I think it was founding father James Madison who in 1784 recognized the necessity of expelling religion from government once and for all. I think that by doing so he sought to protect both religion and the civil rights of people whom religion does not like. In this case the gays. So, you have a constitutional right to use words like slavery, immoral lust, adultery, murder, robbery, slander, and pride when ever you talk to a gay person and call that freedom, but I think that all the gay man will ever hear from you after having those words thrown at him is “clang, clang, clang, gong, gong gong. In the end it will be Jesus Christ who will have the last word. Matthew Ch 25 verses 31-to the end. And He defines the difference between the sheep and the goats buy how each one treated the least of his children. Not one word about there sexual orientation. After all, an argument about sexual orientation is an argument for this life only, sense in the kingdom of heaven there will be no male or female. right. And I have a constitutional right to my point of view. And I also have a biblical right to my point of view, Romans Ch 14 verse 4. And, this is also your blog on which I am writing, so I will go now. <br /> VWBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311176586507637064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3020913048835887605.post-2215868856448120932012-10-02T09:34:51.917-07:002012-10-02T09:34:51.917-07:00VW, I will email you, but I also thought it would ...VW, I will email you, but I also thought it would be good to post a response here.<br />The foundational issue here is what you think of the Bible. If we consider it to be God's Word, then we end up embracing not just the things that resonate with us, but the things that seem counter-intuitive to us. Because of this, the question is not whether one sin is equal to another or worse than another. The question is whether or not we will follow Christ or follow desires that lead us in a contrary direction. This is something we all face. Same-sex attraction is simply one of many desires that lead us away from freedom and toward slavery. The same is true of heterosexual lust, greed, jealousy, and all kinds of other things.<br />As far as your question about Leviticus, it is important to put all Scripture in context. Those of us who embrace Christ are not national Israel. I wrote a post a little while ago about the role of the Old Testament law in the lives of Christians today. Here is the link: http://groupthinkrescue.blogspot.com/2012/08/are-ten-commandments-for-today.html.<br />In the Old Testament, Israel had not only personal moral commands, but also civil commands because they were a nation. The church is not a nation with civil laws. We do not have power of enforcement. And there is not New Testament idea that the church is to be an agent in punishing people who commit sins. Instead, we are a prophetic witness to the culture. We proclaim God's truth, and we invite others to embrace it and respond.<br />There have been Christians who have responded to gay people in ways that have been hateful and ugly. That is not my intention at all. My intention is to reflect what God has said, and to invite all of us away from self-directed lives that lead to slavery, and toward God-oriented lives that lead to freedom.Dan Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17547004550203376356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3020913048835887605.post-28646083174233146452012-10-01T20:02:17.417-07:002012-10-01T20:02:17.417-07:00OK, I see, If a homosexual man lives according to ...OK, I see, If a homosexual man lives according to his desires and does not put up a lifetime of resistance, even if he is otherwise law abiding, he is the same as a murderer or robber. Of course that point of view comes from the Bible. So now I would like to know just how far you go with this biblical point of view. Leviticus 20:13; If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. Should we, as a Christian country, send out the police, FBI, and others to round up all of the gays and execute them. You may not want everyone to read your answer to this, so you can Email me at ibmvwb@hotmail.com. VWBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311176586507637064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3020913048835887605.post-54434344376546486542012-10-01T09:32:47.808-07:002012-10-01T09:32:47.808-07:00VWBlack, thanks for your comment. I'll try to ...VWBlack, thanks for your comment. I'll try to respond to your thoughts.<br />First of all, if I was not clear about this in the post, I do not believe that the Bible teaches that any orientation or attraction is wrong or sinful. I have attractions to a lot of things that would be wrong, were I to act on them. No one is condemned or inferior (nor should anyone be shamed) because of an attraction or orientation.<br />The issue in many areas of our lives is not our attractions or temptations. The issue is how we choose to respond to those. I think it would be accurate to say, in light of Matthew 26, that Jesus was attracted to the idea of bolting and not following through on his Father's plan for him to sacrifice his life. Yet he yielded his will to his Father's.<br />As for the question of living with someone to whom you're not attracted, I this is a vital question for all of us. <br />First of all, there is no command to get married. The Bible teaches clearly in Matthew 19 an 1 Corinthians 7 that lifelong singles are not second class citizens in the kingdom of God. People with same-sex attractions are not required to get married at all (nor are any of us).<br />Second of all, any of us could end up in a situation in which we are not attracted to our spouse. Some people have arranged marriages. Some people change and gain weight. Some people have disfiguring accidents. Something could happen to my wife that would make her not as physically attractive as she is now. In a case like that, would it be valid for me to abandon her in favor of someone to whom I am physically attracted? Clearly the Bible's answer is "no." We are called to fulfill our vows and those vows are not dependent on our spouses remaining (or even being) physically attractive to us.<br />I hope this has helped. Feel free to comment again if you want to follow up on some of this.Dan Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17547004550203376356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3020913048835887605.post-11760689632511241432012-09-30T10:34:58.270-07:002012-09-30T10:34:58.270-07:00So, here will be the question. Does my sexual attr...So, here will be the question. Does my sexual attraction to the opposite sex, (which led to me being happily married) become something that is on the same level as murder, robbery, slander, and pride if my orientation was for the same sex instead of the opposite. Is that really how you see the gay community. And, if your brain was wired in such a way as to not be sexually attracted to your wife would you be willing to live with her for the rest of your life rather than with someone to whom you are attracted? I'm not trying to ask bad questions, I would really like to hear your answers. VWBlackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311176586507637064noreply@blogger.com